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Quote Fuse: "Good post, V. It's not my bag, but if you're going to play fastly, or say speed metal, then play it clean & in time...Vinnie, the Daves, Dennis, Virg, Novak, Kennedy, etc can all play fast, but it's the musicality, time, cleanliness, dynamics, phrasing, attitude, & command that makes it above average & beyond the norm...there's nothing wrong with speed...it is a part of the bag of music, 1 of the many modicums to draw from, as long as musicality & groove are not thwarted at it's expense...speed metal is an aggressive, over the top style, & it's appropo within it's own way..."
Can't agree more. You can have the speed and all the technique in the world, but if it doesn't feel and groove, what's the point. Right? I absolutely love DC's chops, but he can groove and play time, he can communicate in a musical context.[
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 05, 2004 05:34 PM: Message edited by: timwecklfan ]</font>
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True, there may be a few drummers who focused too much on double-bass to learn basic rock or fuck or latin patterns, but does that really make them any worse drummers than you? You can learn all the essential styles you can find, but if you can't incorporate and mix them in a way that makes any sense or sounds good, you might be better off focusing on one aspect like they did. Maybe you, too, can be rich one day and have a large TV. However, all the styles you can regurgitate mean nothing unless you can play them with feeling. Then, you can do whatever you want.
It all boils down to preferences. Something quite often overlooked. People have PREFERENCES. They like to play in the style of music they most like. Some metal gods might suck ass at jazz, but the same can be true the other way around. I mean just look at Vinnie with Megadeth, no offense but I'd rather listen to Hellhammer, Derek Roddy, Flo Mounier, Pete Sandoval, Sean Reinert in THAT context [img]wink.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 05, 2004 10:59 PM: Message edited by: BETA ]</font>
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He actually came up on Virgil's
a while ago.
We talked about the curl of his
wrist. I remember, now, asking
myself just how this guy would
get around the drums doing this.
One thing is clear and that is
that the sound isn't. Perhaps if
we could hear a decent recording
of what he's doing, we could try
and appreciate the physical nat-
ture of it but also keeping in
mind that that's not what music
is about, at least for many.
[img]cool.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 05, 2004 11:38 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>
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I respect the skills that any accomplished musician has developed which is probably why I can appreciate, if not really enjoy, speed metal, bagpipe piobaireachd, Opera, etc. Lack of exposure probably, though some bands, Pantera, Sepultura, and Meshuggah are interesting, enjoyable and musical.
Fuse I agree about the vocals. Satanic dogs barking...
Brad
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Good point Peter. I don't know if he can get around the kit with his wrist at that angle, but guys like Derek Roddy who's played not stop 3 1/2 minute blast beats at 235 can. Guys like Tomas Haake (Meshuggah) could grab any top drummer's ear with his polyrhythmic approach to grooving in odd times.
Vinnie may play ride cymbal patterns that shift from downbeat to upbeat on lots of odd time Sting stuff (a basic cyclic displacement concept he learned/borrowed from Narada Michael Walden on J. Beck's Led Boots). Tomas Haake takes it much further and will play a groove in 11/16 with his feet while his hands play a 2/4 groove with his hands as the groove shifts one 1/16th at a time beneath it.
I guess my point is that it's easy to underestimate drummers who come from a different style with a very different vocabulary we don't understand. Within that genre (speed or technical metal) it isn't just about speed, though that's the thing you initially will notice. Lots of guys whoplay this style don't phrase in very interesting ways, and their bands may not be very interesting. However, the best speed metal drummers do phrase well, have very solid chops and meter and their bands are interesting - if you can get past the vocals! Sepultura, Pantera and many others often groove really, really hard. Regarding dynamics, there usually aren't any. Metal drummers may vary the note density to accomplish a similar goal. But the lack of dynamics aren't really their fault, their guitar players never turn down!
You need a different stylistic criteria to evaluate the players, just like you need when viewing a fusion drummer through jazz eyes (doesn't swing), or a jazz drummer through metal eyes (sloppy technique and no feet), or a great drumset player through the eyes of a DCI rudimental snare drummer (poor grip, limited chop vocabulary, "dirty" player-sloppy), or a DCI player through the eyes of a pipe band drummer (stiff chops and unmusical), etc.
To each, their own and I think we're all entitled to our preferences. But those preferences can easily turn a bit judgemental and become biases and prejudices if we cannot or simply refuse to see it from the other guy's stylistic perspective.
Brad
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Haake is a very good player, so is Vinnie Paul & M Agren within their style.
I met & did a brief hang w Roddy a couple of weeks ago; very nice guy; a good att, open-minded & into other styles includinging largely latin/jazz...he's also very into Weckl, Vinnie, & Virg of course, & has some ideas to back it up, incldg DB & some polyrhythmic stuff. He is by no means limited to heavy metal, but likes to & can play it very well, but there is more to him than that. But it has become his bread n butter gig & what he's become known for, because he has done it, & done it well, & people like his aggressive & intelligent approach to it.
Elvin & others said it best when they said "view something according to it's own merits, & not by the criteria of something else," which means humble yourself to see what someone else is really trying to say without your vision being clouded or limited by your own opinion or experience, but rather enhanced by & an extension of you own experience...staying humble & keeping an open mind [without being necessarily 'taken in' BY everything, but rather 'looking for the good/positive & throwing out the bad/negative'], but giving it 'a shot' to scope it out.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 08, 2004 05:59 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>
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It's very nice to see what's going on in that clip defended (to a degree) by some of you on here who are making excellent points. Nothing makes me angrier than a drummer who dismisses this form of drumming. It is correct that there is typically very little use of dynamics, unusual patterns, or finesse, but what DOES go on in much of this music is absolutely NOT easy. If you think it is, you're being ignorant to say the least. Though my faves are Fusion/Jazz guys, I absolutely cannot STAND what I call "Jazz Supremacists". The irony about JS's is that they usually don't consist of TRUE Jazzers, who themselves know that it takes more than just hitting a drum fast to play this type of music. I would challenge ANY of the Supremacists out there to go out and pick up a Slayer/Vader/Strapping Young Lad album, and play it on the kit EFFECTIVELY. (that being the key word). It is MUCH harder than you think. I have loved Thrash/Speed/(some)Death Metal for many many years, and though I can play much of what I've listened to, I can't play it as effectively as most of these guys because I've always been in bands that were more backbeat/slower oriented. Weck would be the FIRST one to tell you that he'd look like a fool playing this stuff. (that is, of course, not a rip on Master Weck....just telling you what I KNOW he would say). I find it funny that most of the Metal drummers will spit out Vinnie, Dave, Buddy, Dennis, Tony, etc. as people they love to watch drum, but (in my estimation) most jazz/fusioners will just scoff at a good Metal player. Ridiculous.
Summation - Just because a drummer isn't playing Jazz or Fusion doesn't mean he/she isn't good. You all already know that, but I'm saying it anyway. PFFT!
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Total agreement, Plaid, & I am a "jazz fiend."
That IN NO WAY means that i haven't heard & respected some 'serious talent' in HR/HM drumming.
You know, throw a tomato at me, but, I think Weckl could slam a metal gig, if he listened to a lot of it [will never happen! [img]wink.gif[/img] ]...it's just that, if he toured w one [will never happen!], he might not be 'showing the testosterone' of the younger guys! [img]tongue.gif[/img] But that's what mics & amplification are for! He'd sound monstrous. [Prob will never happen!] ;c)
But I've seen him appear to hit from a higher level off the drum while playing rock motifs in clinic [than when he plays jazz or the lighter, airy, 'like water' stuff] ;c)...but still, that high-level, over-the-top Weckl. Slammin'. I saw a mid 90's clinic where he laid waste some killer rock grooves, replete w some good DB, BION...I can only imagine that he's even better at DB now than he was even back then [& esp since he's known of Virg] ;c)...
But on a recording, I'd bet he'd surprise us & flip some of us out...maybe even more than [shudder] Vinnie...
Maybe I'm dreaming; maybe not...but I think so...
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I mean, he already wears all black, & he could shave his head really close [he's already in-&-out of the mullet], grow a Van Dyke goatee [& Just for Men it], & get a temp eyebrow or nose piercing...[WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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BTW [an 'aside'] - i was growing my long hair back, & it was gettin' pretty long again aft a few yrs, but the other day I abruptly decided to cut it ALL off after seeing one of those VH1 80's hair band shows [*cheers from HODhb*, AOT jeers]. Bleah. I'm not gonna be compared to that sheist anymore! Besides, 2 successful Nashville musician friends of mine ragged me on it ["I see you're growin' back your '80's mullet"]...NO. NOT. Never again. ;p
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 09, 2004 02:36 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>
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Vdrummer wins The Most Eloquent Turn-of-Phrase of the Year Award for "satanic dogs barking." I wish I'd said it first! [img]wink.gif[/img]
BETA takes runner-up honors with: "focused too much on double-bass to learn basic rock or fuck or latin patterns." Welcome to the funking board! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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"Funkin'-A!"
"Bloody hell... it sounds like a fire in a pet shop" - now that's funny.
V - interesting - [Haake] - "a groove in 11/16 with his feet while his hands play a 2/4 groove with his hands as the groove shifts one 1/16th at a time beneath it"
- do you know if that's a rudimental type DB pattern or single-strk alt kicks, & what the bass & gtr parts are doing with it? [I can imagine a motif or 2] Is this a song of theirs in particular [name]?
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 09, 2004 02:49 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>
